Mike Piper of the Oblivious Investor blog deleted from the comments section of yesterday’s blog entry (“Review: The Bogleheads’ Guide to Retirement Planning”) a comment that I advanced pointing out the role that Mel Lindauer and Taylor Larimore have played in maintaining the ban on honest posting that applies today at both the Vanguard Diehards board (at Morningtar.com) and at the Bogleheads.org forum.
Set forth below are the words of the deleted comment. I will set forth the text of Mike’s explanation of the deletion as next Tuesday’s blog entry (he has given me permission to do so) and I will set forth my response to Mike as next Thurday’s blog entry.
Here is the text of the deleted comment:
I’m going to say some good stuff about the book because that’s the charitable and proper way to proceed. And then I am going to say some bad stuff because I believe we are all obligated to speak honestly re matters that affect people’s retirement planning.
The authors were given a book contract not because they personally possess skills as retirement planners. They were given the contract because of the wonderful communities that they played a big role in building at Morningstar.com (the Vanguard Diehards community) and at Bogleheads.org. The communities truly are wonderful. I actively participated at Vanguard Diehards until I was banned (I was banned at Bogleheads.org before putting forward a post — the board was formed to escape me). And I link to discussions held at these communities frequently at the “Today’s Passion” feature of my site.
Taylor and Mel obviously deserve credit for the work they did building learning resources that benefit us all. There are thousands of people who love them for having done this and not entirely without reason. John Bogle is today’s leading investment authority and he has endorsed the work done by Taylor and Mel. I have not read the book but I am certain that there is a lot of good stuff in it.
People also need to know about the bad stuff. I am the person who discovered the errors in the Old School safe withdrawal rate (SWR) studies. It is because I reported the accurate numbers at the Vanguard Diehards board that I was banned both there and at Bogleheads.org. This is wrong. It is not a wrong done only to me. It is a wrong done to all of the thousands of community members who expressed a desire that honest posting be permitted there. It is a black mark on all who participate in that community (including John Bogle) that this wrong has not been rectified for over two years now.
This failure to address the SWR topic and resolve it successfully affects the integrity of the book. I don’t know precisely what is said in the book re SWRs. But I know with 100 percent certainty that the book does not say the same things about retirement that it would say if Taylor and Mel had permitted honest discussions of the flaws in the Old School studies and had learned from those discussions. The book as it exists today is not the book that would exist had board “leaders” acted with integrity in their board administration actions.
That’s the right word — integrity. The reason why discussions of the errors made in the Old School studies have been so contentious is that there are integrity issues involved in the failure of the community of Passive Investing advocates to address these issues for over seven years now. We are not going to be able to duck these issues indefinitely. Our integrity is part of what makes us human. We cannot continue to function as humans if we do not address challenges to our ability to act with integrity. None of us should be recommending without reservation Investing guides that lack integrity in their discussion of important topics (it is of course possible that guides that lack integrity on some issues may do good service on other issues).
These words are going to upset some people. That’s proper and right. The realities here are unpsetting. We all have a role to play in getting things back on the right track.
Rob
Rob,
Did you not lambaste others on REHP for ‘reviewing’ your book without having read it?
I know you did, and can provide specific links and quotes to your indignant remarks if you like.
One of the foundations of integrity is not being a hypocrite.
You fail.
Did you not lambaste others on REHP for ‘reviewing’ your book without having read it?
I can’t comment on the precise content of the Bogleheads’ Guide to Retirement Planning because I have not read it, Drip Guy. You have a legitimate point re that part of your comment.
But I can (and must — if I am to honor my responsibilities to my fellow community members) point out that the claim of the authors of this book is that this book was developed as a community effort. That’s the disgrace here.
The community wanted to take the discussion in one direction (there were hundreds of community members who expressed a desire that honest posting be permitted on safe withdrawal rates) and the second most abusive poster in the history of the internet (Mel Lindauer) wanted to take it in another and the book as published reflects the take of the bullies of this community, not of the many thousands of people who participated there with good intent. That’s an outrage.
The authors are presenting this book as if it accurately reflects what the Bogleheads community believes about retirement planning. This is a lie. The book does not come close to reflecting the community consensus. How can it when there were threats of physical violence and other acts of intimidation employed to block those who believe in New School SWR analysis from presenting their views? The entire thing is a very, very sick and very, very twisted joke.
John Bogle had a post up the other day expressing praise for the Bogleheads community and for the innovation that this represents. To an extent this is a wonderful comment. He is 100 percent right that this represents an innovation of immense importance. But Bogle betrayed the Bogleheads community when he failed to contact Morningstar and insist that action be taken re the Lindauer matter in real time. I think it is fair to describe his comments of today as hypocritical given his history re this matter. Someone who felt a true and deep love for that community would have spoken up when Mel was in the process of humiliating it. In the context in which they were delivered, Bogle’s comments are an insult to the true Boglehheads, Drip Guy.
I of course understand that it takes courage to speak up to these thugs, Drip Guy. I think it would be fair to say that there is no one on Planet Earth who possesses a greater understanding of what the Greaney and Lindauer Goons are capable of than does Rob Bennett. Still, there were hundreds of us who spoke up in real time, were there not? So it can be done.
This is the piece of the puzzle that you are missing., Drip Guy. You properly praise the intellect of someone like Bogle and express astonishment at our findings that he has been so terribly wrong about so many of the basics of stock investing for so many years now. What you are missing is that it is not just about intellect. Heart is part of it. Courage is part of it. When Bogle failed to speak up about Mel and his Campaign of Terror against the Diehards, he evidenced a failure of heart and a failure of courage.
I obviously take no pleasure in pointing out this reality. Bogle is a hero of mine, his contributions on the intellectual side are very. very real and even on the heart and courage side I believe that he has made real contributions and evidenced a desire to do more. But the reality is that in his failure to speak up about Mel he failed himself, his investing philosophy, the entire community that meets at the Vanguard Diehards and Bogleheads.org boards, and even Mel himself.
The community has done wonderful work, work that is almost beyond what anyone could have imagined was possible when the community was formed. This is a time when we should be feeling pride about what we have accomplished. The experience has been soured by this vicious gang of thugs and by the failure of the larger community to speak up in strong and certain terms about the harm they have done to us and that they continue to do to us on a daily basis. Bogle is one of those who has failed to speak up. That needs to be said, whether it makes us feel uncomfortable to put these things in words or not. We are not going to be able to solve the problem until we work up the courage and heart to talk about the problem.
Mike Piper is a good guy. Mike feels the same discomfort that I feel in reporting accurately the very sick and twisted circumstances in which the material for this deeply dishonest book was developed. I get that. The other side of the story (a side that I believe I am honor-bound to report) is that Mike lets us down in the same way that Bogle lets us down when he puts forward a review of Mel’s book without pointing out that Mel mischaracterizes the community discussions that produced it each time he fails to point out that Mel employed threats of physical violence to silence those who offered views that differed with his own for which he was not able to come up with any reasoned response.
I agree with Bogle that Mel played a positive role in developing that community. I have said before that, when I attend the annual Diehards meeting, the first thing I will do is seek out Mel and reach out and offer him the hand of friendship. All that is right and proper and helpful and constructive and positive. It is NOT right and proper and helpful and constructive and positive to fail to point out the atmosphere of intimidation in which the community discussions in which this book was developed were held. That is a part of the story that must be told for honesty’s sake.
Our community deserves the respect that we evidence toward it when we tell the true and complete story of the shameful circumstances in which this book was developed. That’s my sincere take re this one.
I am going to continue to speak out re these matters when the circumstances in which I am placed demand it of me. I of course love John Bogle and I of course love the Vanguard Diehard and Bogleheads communities and I of course will continue to say that. I wouldn’t say that I love Mel Lindauer, but I think that I can say in all honesty that I respect the work that he had done building those communities, so I will continue to say that. I also feel a need out of loyalty to the many community members who have expressed a desire to post their honest views on investing to point out that the book is a sham, that it reflects Mel Lindauer’s views, not the views of the community that Mel Lindauer disses on a regular basis. I am a community guy, not a Mel Lindauer guy. I love what the community represents. The community has been shamed by the tactics that Mel and his Goon Squad have employed, and I regret this deeply.
I look forward to the day when the Ban on Honest Posting is lifted at all our boards and when we all can begin feeling a lot better about the work we do together. I offer the hand of friendship to all who join us in doing that important work. I offer the back of my hand to those who direct their energies to continuing the Campaign of Terror, causing us all (including Mel, to be sure) even more shame and more regret and more financial losses. Triple Yucko!
Rob
“I can… point out that the claim of the authors of this book is that this book was developed as a community effort. That’s the disgrace here.”
That is your opinion, and in this great country, it is your right to say that here on your blog. Ain’t it wonderful?
However, it is ALSO the purview of others to decide who does and does not fit in their own definition of ‘community.’ Retirement villages routinely exclude children and anyone under 55. Nudist colonies exclude those who insist on remaining clothed. And so on. And Rob, the community of sane, normal, rational, enlightened, informed, self-deprecating, enthusiastic, life-affirming, wonderful people who like to refer to themselves as “Diehards” or “Bogleheads” have taken upon themselves to exclude one person, just one that I know of, from their otherwise 100% inclusive, happy coterie, becasue that person did not share their philosophy, beliefs, and more importnat, their expectation of civil behavior on THEIR forums. They therefore have banned for life one Robert Michael “Hocus” Bennett, for reasons that are self-evident from even the most casual of Google searches.
So, is your position that their (much belated, IMHO) exclusion of just you from the polite company they otherwise keep, should somehow prevent them from voicing their otherwise nearly unanimous findings with regard to saving and investing, so that those unfamiliar with the principles can be enlightened? If that is indeed your position, you are even more of a jack-booted thug than I had previously thought.
it is ALSO the purview of others to decide who does and does not fit in their own definition of ‘community.’
Mel does not own Morningstar.com, Drip Guy.
Morningstar.com as the owner of the site gets to state what the rules for participation at that site will be.
Mel failed to follow the rules of the community after promising that he would follow those rules (all community members were required to click “I Accept” before putting up their first posts). When one community member is not willing to follow the community norms, it is that community member who has to go, not the integrity of the community itself.
My sincere take.
Rob
“Morningstar.com as the owner of the site gets to state what the rules for participation at that site will be”
I believe they exercised that right when they decided to ban you.
I believe they exercised that right when they decided to ban you.
The reality is precisely to the contrary, JCL.
The Morningtar.com rules permit honest posting on safe withdrawal rates.
The Morningtar.com rules do not permit the use of threats of physical violance to silence those who post honestly on these matters.
If Morningtar.com wants to change its rules, it is free to do so. It has not done so.
Rob
Boglehead DVDs are available now
http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=44281&mrr=1256580904
Boglehead DVDs are available now
I’m saving my money until they put out one with Mel and me singing a karaoke version of “Love Will Keep Us Together,” JCL.
But to each his own, I suppose.
Rob