Set forth below is the text of a comment that I recently posted to a discussion of a blog entry at this site:
hopefully for your sake you have more of a plan than praying.
God helps those who help themselves, What. So I certainly need to work it myself in addition to saying my prayers.
But it is in God’s hands, not mine. If God doesn’t mean for this to happen, it’s not going to happen, no matter how hard I work it.
I had a discussion about this with my mother shortly before she died. She said that maybe all that I am trying to teach people is going to become widely accepted after my death. Oh, great! I hate that idea.
It was just like my mom to say that, though. My favorite trait of hers is that she was not one to sugarcoat. So I have to accept that she might be right.
Now –
Why would God do that to me? It sounds almost like a trick.
It could be that He wanted me to learn patience or compassion. There might be some lesson in all this that I am today oblivious to that I can only become aware of by experiencing whatever I will be experiencing as the days move on. Perhaps I really will be put to death, you know? Perhaps there is some lesson that I can only learn by being put to death and God knows that it is only re this issue that I could ever possess the courage needed for things to reach that point (the issue of standing by your friends on the internet really does touch me in a way that not too many other issues do).
If that’s God’s plan, that’s God’s plan. I don’t want it to be so, I don’t like the idea one little bit. But I pray that I have the courage to accept God’s plan here without too much whining.
I don’t control the world, What. I don’t pretend to. I am some guy who figured out how to get posts to appear on internet discussion boards, nothing more and nothing less. I don’t think that I even possess a master plan, in the way you suggest. The plan I follow is that I wake up each morning, turn on my computer, handle what is in front of me that day, turn off the computer and go to sleep. I try as hard as I can to understand the other fellow’s point of view and to be kind and polite when doing it. I also try to be firm about honesty on important matters, not to give in to pressures applied to me to get me to say things I don’t believe to be so. That’s the plan, in summary form.
Following that plan has taken me to some mighty strange places over the past 11 years. I’ve seen amazing things, both positive and negative. I’ve never been under the illusion that I controlled how things turn out. I control one tiny little piece of the world, the posts that show up under the name “Rob Bennett.” That’s all.
I do believe that God put me here to do this work. He doesn’t speak to me in a direct way. I hear him speaking to me in an indirect way and that’s the message I hear. But I’ve been wrong about that sort of thing before and it could be that it’s happening again. But I personally believe that God put me here to do this work all the same.
I don’t pray often. But I do on occasion pray for help and courage. I would phrase things the opposite of the way you did. I would say that I need to continue exerting my efforts but that I need to accept that those efforts will not be nearly enough, that I am not going to prevail here without God’s help. I would say that I would be foolish to think that my efforts alone are going to be sufficient.
Safe withdrawal rates matter, What. I believe that. But I also believe that in the grand scheme of things they may not matter all that much. It could be that in the grand scheme there are things going on here that matter more than the investing topics matter. Thinking along those lines gets a bit too cosmic for me, so I don’t spend much time doing it. But I think that’s a possibility. I certainly think it would be a terrible mistake for me to make safe withdrawal rates so important that I would be unkind to you or one of my other Goon friends. I don’t believe that I have ever been unkind to any of you and I certainly pray that I never cross that line.
Enough!
Take good care, my old friend.
Rob
Rob,
Don’t you think God already gave you an answer? You have been doing this for 11 years with no success. The answer seems to be “no”.
It depends on how you look at it, Deleted.
If you are talking about me becoming rich and famous, you are right. That sort of thing has been denied me in a big way for 11 years now. Fair enough.
But how about the accomplishments?
The accomplishments are 100 times greater than the greatest accomplishments I ever dreamed of attaining back when I was a boy growing up in Northeast Philadelphia and hoping someday to follow the steps of Woodward and Bernstein is some tiny way. So there’s that.
I’d be happy to trade some of the accomplishments stuff for some of the wealth and fame stuff at this point in the proceedings. The rewards that I have experienced are more than a little bit on the UNBALANCED side at this point in the proceedings. But whachagondo?
God for some reason known only to Him (or Her!) sees fit to give me lots and lots and lots of rewards on the accomplishments side of the ledger and pretty much zip on the fame and wealth side of the ledger. It’s not fair! I could cry about it. But would it do any good? That’s the question that haunts me when I am tempted to take it in that direction.
My view is that the thing to do is to be grateful for the huge blessings I have received on the accomplishments side of the ledger. And perhaps to include a small note in some prayer I send up from time to time to the effect of “Hey! Would it be a terrible thing for the world if I were to get a wee bit of that wealth and fame stuff mixed in with all this wonderful accomplishments jizz-jazz?”
That’s God’s call, though, Deleted.
That’s the point of the post.
I can wish for things to change. But I cannot make it happen on my own. Ultimately, I have to accept what is and make the best of it.
So do you, my old friend.
At least that’s my sincere take re this important matter.
Hang in there, old buddy.
Rob the (Occasional) Prayer
Rob said:”I do believe that God put me here to do this work”
God does require you to work (if able), but what you are doing isn’t really work, Rob.
Here is a link to many scripture references as to work:
http://www.openbible.info/topics/lazy_people
I think this quote in particular is one that focuses like a laser:
1 Timothy 5:8
English Standard Version (ESV)
8 But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
Have you provided the best you can? Maybe it is time to get a job and work. Diligent work leads to provision.
Have you provided the best you can?
Yes, I believe I have, Deleted.
I have provided for the material needs of my boys very well. If anything, their life is too soft. That’s the worry.
And I have demonstrated to them how good things, the kinds of things that really matter in this life, don’t come easy in this life. It’s important that they learn that. And they don’t learn it by seeing their dad take the easy path to turning a quick buck. They are learning that having integrity is hard sometimes. But that the long-term payoff can be very, very big in all sorts of wonderful ways.
I wish you all the best that this life has to offer a person, my old friend.
Rob the (Stubbornly) Virtuous One
Just to give you more background, Rob. I volunteer as a financial counselor with a church ministry. I actually help those middle class Americans you talk about. Their problems have nothing to do with SWRs, but with consumer debt that keeps them from saving. Some are like you. They have a “dream” and decide everything will take a backseat to the dream. They can’t afford that dream and they as well as their family suffer. They are also incapable of helping out those in need, which is actually one of the commands, as you probably know.
God likely gave you an answer, but I think you are too mentally wrapped up in your mission and dream, that all reality has gone out the window.
Rob,
How is retiring early showing your boys the meaning of work and provision? How is working diligently at your job part of Path to earning a quick buck? The proper model is to demonstrate the fruits of hard work and that you can not only provide adequately for your family, but also for others.
From what I have read, your finances in retirement demonstrate otherwise.
Their problems have nothing to do with SWRs
You’re wrong, Deleted.
The lies that the Wall Street Con Men tell us about SWRs are the same lies that caused the economic crisis.
Middle-class people have a harder time finding jobs during an economic crisis than they do at times when we are permitting honest posting on SWRs and lots of other critically important investment-related topics. It gets even harder to find a job when we go into the Second Great Depression.
It’s one thing to act superior and say to hurting people “Get a job!”
It’s something very different to work up the courage to stand up to the Wall Street Con Men and to do what needs to be done to make it possible for ordinary people to be able to find jobs.
Ending this economic crisis is important work. Avoiding the Second Great Depression is important work. Bringing us to the greatest period of economic growth in our history is important work. Reducing the risk of stock investing by 70 percent is important work. Making it possible for people of intelligence and integrity to earn a living in the investing field is important work.
We do not agree on a number of important issues, Deleted. Re a good number of important issues, we are working at cross purposes.
I wish you all good things.
Rob the Hard Worker
From what I have read, your finances in retirement demonstrate otherwise.
You need to spend less time taking in the smelly garbage put forward by the Lindauerheads and the Greaney Goons and more time taking in the wonderful and kind and intelligent and life-affirming stuff put forward by the thousands of your fellow community members who have expressed a desire that honest posting on investing questions be permitted at every board and blog on the internet, Deleted.
My sincere take.
Don’t let the bad guys get you down, man.
Rob the Friendly Advisor
Rob,
The facts you put out on your own retirement finances say otherwise. The facts about the low savings rates being the primary factor of retirement failure are well documented. You have not provided any supported facts to show otherwise for either issue.
The facts about the low savings rates being the primary factor of retirement failure are well documented.
The fact that the reckless and relentless and ruthless promotion of the Buy-and-Hold “strategy” caused the economic crisis is also well-documented.
There are few “experts” willing to give voice to this reality publicly. But talk to them privately and they will acknowledge the reality.
Why don’t they feel comfortable saying what they know?
Is it because they don’t think the economic crisis matters?
Or is it because they like their cushy careers and know that the Buy-and-Hold Mafia will destroy them if they speak clearly about what is truly in their hearts and minds?
You know what I think.
And I think this is a very, very bad thing.
I think it is going to tear our country apart as the Buy-and-Hold Crisis worsens and causes more and more and more human misery.
My best wishes to you and yours.
Rob
“This is a story of a man, who was a firm believer of god.
One day it began to rain very heavily. It kept raining and a big flood came.
The man climbed up on the roof of his house, and knew that he would be ok. God would protect him.
It kept raining and now the water had reached his waist. A boat came by and a guy in the boat said: “Hey, jump in. We will take you with us”.
“No thanks”, said the man. “I’m a firm believer in God. He will rescue me”. He sent the boat away.
It kept on raining and now the water had reached his neck. Another boat came by and a guy in the boat said: “You look like you could need some help. Jump in and we will take you with us”.
“No”, said the man. “I’m a firm believer in God. He will rescue me. Don’t worry about me”. The boat sailed away.
It still rained and the water now reached his mouth. A helicopter came by and a guy in the helicopter threw down a rope and said: “Hi there my friend. Climb up. We will rescue you”.
“No”, said the man. “I’m a firm believer in God. He will rescue me. I know he will”. The helicopter flew away.
It kept on raining, and finally the man drowned.
When the man died, he went to heaven. When entering Heaven, he had an interview with God.
After giving a polite greeting and sitting down, the man asked: “Where were you. I waited and waited. I was sure you would rescue me, as I have been a firm believer all my life, and have only done good to others. So where were you when I needed you?”
God scratched his confused looking face and answered: “I don’t get it either. I sent you two boats and a helicopter”.
Many who believe in God or in Karma etc. somehow believes that signs of help and guidance comes as a big event of some kind, when actually it would probably come as small signs of help here and there along the way.
Listen to the world around you. You might just find the answer there. “
Listen to the world around you. You might just find the answer there.
Shiller is part of the world around me, Evidence.
His book was a best-seller.
Rob the Reader
Rob,
The savings rate was pathetic before the economic crisis. It has always been the problem. SWRs are not the issue for middle class America.
Rob,
You either don’t comprehend the story evidence told, or you just don’t like what it means.
SWRs are not the issue for middle class America.
Then it cannot hurt to permit honest posting on them.
Rob the Logical
You either don’t comprehend the story evidence told, or you just don’t like what it means.
Or perhaps it is yo who doesn’t comprehend the story or who doesn’t like what it means.
Rob the Turn-About Artist
People post all the time on the topic. I can give you plenty of links to prove that. The problem for you is that you were kicked off the boards because of your behavior. You got your feelings hurt and thus we have your 11 year campaign that has been a waste of time.
We don’t need more posting on the topic.
We need HONEST posting on the topic.
For that, we need to break the Buy-and-Hold Mafia.
The day that prison sentences are announced for those who have posted in “defense” of Mel Linduaer and John Greaney, it is over, Deleted.
That will go viral.
You will never again hear any “expert” in this field “defend” Buy-and-Hold.
And, once we are all enjoying the greatest economic boom in our history, you will never hear one person express any regret for the decision to permit honest posting on the last 32 years of peer-reviewed academic research.
My sincere take.
Rob the Forward-Looking One
There is plenty of honest posting. You just have to get over your vendetta with the people that want nothing to do with you.
Okay, Deleted.
Take care, man.
Rob the Resigned
Rob,
This thread is a waste. You seem to want to know if your efforts are part of God’s plan. You have been doing this for over a decade with no results. You appear to have your answer. Despite this apparent answer, you can’t mentally let go, so you keep up with the foolish game expecting that some fantasy will come to pass that includes your enemies put in prison and people magically handing you $500 million because of what you have described as a guilt trip.
Based on the original subject of this thread, there is plenty to read in the bible about acting like a fool. Next, thing you know, you will also tell us you know more about investing than God.
Next, thing you know, you will also tell us you know more about investing than God.
Jack Bogle is as close as we’ve got to an investing God in this world, Pink.
And I think it would be fair to say that I now am 11 years ahead of my good friend Jack in my understanding of the realities.
So what you are saying is kinda, sorta true when you look at it from a funny sort of angle.
It’s obviously not because I am smarter than Jack. Or that I work harder. Or that I went to investing school for more years. Or that I managed bigger funds.
If anything, it’s because none of those things are true that I have been able to gain so much ground on my good friend.
The basic texts in this field have it wrong. The mistake that was made was a mistake that goes to the root. It is the foundation of our knowledge in this field that is in error.
Guess what happens when you go to Investing School or when you get put in charge of a big fund?
You come to place great reliance on what they say in the textbooks. You come to have a great deal of confidence in the foundational ideas.
I have never suffered from any great confidence in the foundational ideas. I believed in Buy-and-Hold on the morning of May 13, 2002. For the same reason most other reasonably smart people do. That’s what I heard being promoted as the research-based strategy on television and in magazines and all that sort of thing.
I learned different on the night of August 27, 2002, when John Greaney threatened to kill my wife and children if I ever again “crossed” him by posting honestly on SWRs and 200 of my fellow community members gave his post an Up vote.
I knew then it was all b.s., Pink.
And I have never looked back.
A legitimate investing strategy gives the investor confidence things will turn out okay in the long run. It is Get Rich Quick schemes that cause people to feel so much emotional pain that they make death threats or applaud death threats.
Jack will catch up to me one of these days. He is a great man. Following the next crash, his heart is going to melt when he sees all the human misery he has caused with his relentless promotion of the smelly Buy-and-Hold garbage. And I will be appearing with him on stage on his “I Was Wrong” world tour, where we will be working together to bury the GRQ garbage 30 feet in the ground while filling millions of middle-class investors in on the first true research-based strategy, Valuation-Informed Indexing.
I hope you are able to share a bit in all the fun we will be having then, even if it has to be in a limited way and from a prison cell.
It gets better, Pink. A lot better.
My best wishes to you and yours.
Rob the True Boglehead
Despite your spin, Rob, it does appear that you feel you know more than God on investing and/or this is just another thread for you to justify your position.
The day that prison sentences are announced for those who have posted in “defense” of Mel Linduaer and John Greaney, it is over, Deleted.
People will not be sent to jail for exercising their right to free speech.
No.
I believe certain things to be so.
But I am one of the flawed humans. It is not possible for me to know anything with certainty. Anyone who changes his or her beliefs on investing solely based on something I say about the subject is a damn fool. That’s not some Goon talking. It’s Rob Bennett who says that.
Here’s an idea, Pink.
Have every board and blog that has banned honest posting make an announcement that, as of the close of business today, honest posting will be permitted on SWRs and on many other critically important investment-related topics. But add a provision that the posts of Rob Bennett and Rob Bennett only will contain warning language at the end saying “This fellow acknowledges that he has been wrong about important things in the past and that it could well be that it is happening again.”
I’ll have zero objection.
I’ll applaud you for the positive and constructive and life-affirming condition.
I don’t know anything for certain.
But I don’t feel even a tiny bit comfortable putting my name to claims that I believe will cause huge life setbacks for my friends somewhere down the line. So I won’t do it.
I ask kindly that you try to find someone else for that sort of work.
It is not my particular cup of tea.
My warmest regards.
Rob the Fallible
People will not be sent to jail for exercising their right to free speech.
That’s correct.
It will be for financial fraud.
Love ya, man.
Rob the Legal Expert
What you want, Rob, is for every board that banned you to say they ewere wrong in doing so, right? Nice try at spinning that.
I’m willing to help out regardless of whether they say they were wrong or not, Pink. There are biggest issues here than the personal stuff.
But, sure, it’s a good thing if they say they were wrong. That helps everybody feel better about themselves. An apology helps the person giving it more than it helps the person to whom it is directed.
Have you ever been in an argument with someone? And you find yourself getting trapped? You want to win so much that you find yourself saying crazier and crazier things. Then at some moment it hits you how stupid you are being.
And you apologize.
And right away you feel a whole big bunch better.
So, yes, I very much favor apologies. I don’t demand them, however.
There’s only one thing re which I have drawn a line in the sand. I will never post dishonestly re the numbers that my friends use to plan their retirements.
It shouldn’t be even a little bit difficult for any reasonable person to understand why there can be no compromise re that one. And indeed I have not once offered even the tiniest hint of any willingness to compromise re that one. Not in 11 years. Not in 11 billion years.
To suggest some possibility of compromise would be cruel, Pink. I would be leading you on. For what purpose?
My best to you and yours.
Rob
Rob,
I think we have a difference of opinion as to what hosting posting means. To me, honest posting means that I am speaking the truth and it can be supported with facts. Honest posting for you is what your opinion happens to be at the time.
I will continue to post honestly re SWRs and many other critically important investment-related topics in any event, Pink.
I wish you all good things, my old friend.
Rob the Honesty Nut
You have already said that, but what our definition of honest posting differs. Honest posting in my mind is what is truthful and can be backed by facts. To you, it is based on YOUR opinion.
I understand, Pink.
Please take good care.
Rob the Understanding One
I learned different on the night of August 27, 2002, when John Greaney threatened to kill my wife and children if I ever again “crossed” him by posting honestly on SWRs and 200 of my fellow community members gave his post an Up vote
Does that post still exist at Motley Fool?
No one had dared to post on the subject of early retirement there for many years now, Evidence.
It was the most successful board in the history of the Motley Fool site back in the days before the Greaney Goons came on the scene.
Rob
You didn’t answer whether the post still exists at Motley Fool.
There are fix or six posts making various threats as to what Greaney would have his Goons do to me and my family in the event that I continued to post honestly. Motley Fool removed the threat posts themselves. But there are posts that discuss them that contain quotes from the threat posts (I believe that their lawyers demanded this). There were also numerous posts in which a large number of community members expressed a desire that honest posting be permitted. All of those posts (combined with the 11 years of follow-up acts of intimidation) tell you what you need to know to gain at least a rough sense of the length of the prison sentence you have to look forward to, Evidence.
Of course, Greaney continues with the death threats and other acts of intimidation to this day. Ask Academic Researcher Wade Pfau. Or ask Jack Bogle. He knows about it. He is afraid to say anything publicly. But I would bet $5 that he would be willing to say in private that he opposes such smelly garbage and that he is ashamed of himself for failing to speak up about it.
I obviously am doing all I can to get the prison sentences for you Goons shortened a bit. But I can’t say that I will be unhappy to hear my good friend Jack Bogle posting honestly. I think that will be a real treat. So I can’t say that the prison sentences are not needed. I just feel that all of us who consider ourselves friends of you Goons should be doing what we can to keep them as limited as possible given the circumstances.
I hope that makes good sense to you, my long-time abusive posting friend.
Rob the Goon Friend
But there are posts that discuss them that contain quotes from the threat posts (I believe that their lawyers demanded this).
Do you have a link for those posts?
Of course.
And I have of course shared them with you Goons on hundreds of earlier occasions.
I have also shared them with the Purcellville Police Department, the FBI, my congressman and a special unit on Internet Crimes in the Virginia state police department.
We’re covered, man.
Next we go to the jury.
Good luck!
Rob the Documentation Freak
And I have of course shared them with you Goons on hundreds of earlier occasions.
A more accurate staement would be that you have claimed to have shared the links on hundreds of earlier occasions.
You haven’t been so good with actual sharing.
I have also shared them with the Purcellville Police Department, the FBI, my congressman and a special unit on Internet Crimes in the Virginia state police department
And how did they react to your information?
A more accurate staement would be that you have claimed to have shared the links on hundreds of earlier occasions.
That makes sense, Evidence. Truly outstanding!
And how did they react to your information?
No one has taken effective action to this date.
If someone had, you would be in prison today instead of posting at this blog.
Duh.
Rob the Stater of the Obvious
No one has taken effective action to this date.
If there were actual death threats than someone would have taken action.
One would think.
One would hope.
One would pray.
Rob the Thinking and Hoping and Praying
Thinking and Hoping and Praying doesn’t seem to have worked so far.
You could try backing up your claims with actual evidence.
If such evidence exists.
Which it doesn’t.
So Thinking and Hoping and Praying is probably your best shot.
But I wouldn’t hold out much hope if I was you.
A jury will decide the matter, Evidence.
That’s how our system works.
I wish you well.
Rob the Believer in the U.S. System
Thinking and Hoping and Praying doesn’t seem to have worked so far.
I think it would be fair to say that it has worked a whole big bunch better than agreeing to engage in financial fraud in an effort to persuade you Goons to permit me to post on the internet.
If I had engaged in financial fraud, I would have a prison sentence in my future too.
No thanks, man.
Rob the Freedom Lover
A jury will decide the matter, Evidence.
The Purcellville Police Department, the FBI, your congressman and a special unit on Internet Crimes in the Virginia state police department have already delivered their verdict.
Your case is totally without foundation and no trial will ever happen.
Time will tell the tale, Evidence.
By the way, there will not be any prison sentences coming about as a result of “my” case. Criminal actions are brought by the state. There would have to be a public demand for a criminal case to be brought before such a case could be brought.
I intend to bring a case against you for civil damages. But that’s a money thing. That’s not going to put you in prison.
I would imagine that there will be tens of thousands of people who will have suffered failed retirements who also will be bringing civil cases. Those will not directly lead to a prison sentence for you either. It might be that the hundreds of thousands of failed retirements you have caused and the massive social problem we will experience as a nation will generate a groundswell of support for criminal actions. But the people filing civil actions will not have the power to determine themselves whether criminal actions will be brought or not.
I wish you the best of luck with it. Please let me know if there is ever anything that I can do.
Rob the Concerned
I intend to bring a case against you for civil damages.
No lawyer that you have contacted has been willing to take such a case.
The full truth is that several have expressed a great interest in taking the case.
Of the six or so that I contacted, none was willing to take the case on a contingency basis. Actually, one was. But he felt that the case was too big and that his firm was not large enough to handle it. In any event, it is correct to say that the papers have not get been filed. Duh.
I have a funny feeling that there will be lawyers coming out of the woodwork to take on cases of this type following the next crash. Why would the legal industry not want to get its hands on the billions of dollars in legal fees that by rights will be going its way once people see how the ruthless promotion of Buy-and-Hold strategies for 32 years after the peer-reviewed research showed that there is precisely zero chance that a Buy-and-Hold strategy could ever work for a single long-term investor?
I have known a lot of lawyers, Evidence. I cannot say that I have known too many who would turn down slam-dunk cases for huge damage awards.
Hey! Maybe the Wall Street Con Men will cover your damages. No one has a crystal ball. No one can say for sure, right?
Anyway, I wish you all the best of luck with it.
Rob the Knower of Many Lawyers Who Like to Bring Sure-Thing, Big-Money Cases
Hey!
Do you think any of the tens of thousands of lawyers who will be bringing cases will be interested in the 11 years of documentation of ongoing financial fraud made available to the world at this site?
Yikes!
That would mean a lot of links!
Will the servers be able to handle it?
I don’t know if I can afford a larger server given my terrible financial situation.
What a mess I have gotten myself into with this thing!
Rob the Cost-Conscious Site Owner
Rob,
It is so easy to see that you are full of it. First of all, if you had evidence of a crime, the police department would be required to work with the district attorney to file criminal charges. Also, you have been asked many times to back up your claims (provide evidence) and you have yet to do so.
Next, lawyers take cases based on how they get paid. If they feel that the case has a strong case to be won and that they can also reap a substantial award, they will take the case on contingency. If not, they will only take the case if they are paid an hour basis. Clearly, the law firms that you spoke with are not confident in your allegations. Thus, they are pursuing it.
Finally, with everything, there is a statute of limitations. I know you keep spinning your story that it doesn’t apply and that there are ongoing violations still happening, but that is still all part of your silly fantasy.
The legal system looks at you like a crackpot, just like the rest of us have determined.
I will continue posting honestly all the same, Deleted.
When the time is ripe, I will bring the civil lawsuits.
If you are brought up on criminal charges, I will testify honestly.
That’s it.
I don’t control the rest and I don’t pretend to.
I wish you all good things.
Rob the Well-Wisher
Yes, I know you will continue your fantasy posting, while the rest of us will actually post the truth that is supported by facts.
As you can tell, no one is scared of your hollow threats of lawsuits or other legal action because you have no basis. Instead, there is plenty of evidence to show that people have a case against you. Your saving grace is that you have minimal assets for anyone to want to spend time going after you (the only benefit I can think of as a result of your poor planning).
Thanks for your kind words and warm wishes, Deleted.
Rob the Grateful