Set forth below are the texts of several comments that I recently posted to another blog entry at this site:
Only a complete troll sits around trying to point out other people’s mistakes all day.
We couldn’t possibly disagree more, Anonymous.
Getting the mistakes of the Buy-and-Holders fixed is huge. There’s a lot of good stuff in the Buy-and-Hold Model. When we get the mistakes fixed, it works in the real world.
I love working to get those mistakes fixed. I only wish we could do get things done faster!
Hang in there, man.
Rob
I should add that someone who is not man enough to correct his mistakes when they are pointed out to him does not possess the minimal level of integrity needed to work in the investing advice field.
That goes for John Greaney. That goes for Mel Linduaer. That goes for my good friend Jack Bogle. That goes for all of the individuals who have put up posts in “defense” of these three over the past 12 years.
Personal integrity has to come first. Intelligence without integrity doesn’t get the job done. Power without integrity doesn’t get the job done. Money without integrity doesn’t get the job done. Experience without integrity doesn’t get the job done.
Yes, even in the investing advice field.
That’s my sincere take re this terribly important matter, in any event.
Rob
My experience has been that I have often learned a lot from identifying my mistakes and acknowledging them and correcting them. I try to feel grateful to the people who help me out by pointing out my mistakes. That’s a good test of true friendship. People who don’t really care about you on a deep level aren’t going to go to the trouble to point out your mistakes, they are more inclined to flatter you. Your true and lasting friends hate to see you do harm to yourself. So they are more inclined to stick their necks out.
That’s another way of telling the same basic story set forth in the above two comments, just coming at it from a different angle.
Don’t let the bad guys get you down, Anonymous.
Rob
Please remember that we wouldn’t have the amazing Bennett/Pfau research paper (peer reviewed!) showing millions of middle-class investors how to reduce the risk of stock investing by 70 percent if I hadn’t worked up the courage to point out Greaney’s mistake back in May 2002.
I was scared then like everybody else is today. But I think it would be fair to say that that one act of courage by a somewhat frightened fellow has led us all to some amazing places in the 12 years since.
Fair enough?
Rob
I have a question for you, Anonymous.
Say that you were me. Say that you loved the core Buy-and-Hold concept (focusing on the long term and rooting your strategies in the peer-reviewed research) but that you became convinced that your Buy-and-Hold friends had made a terrible mistake that caused an economic crisis, wiping out years of the accumulated savings of millions of middle-class investors.
Would you keep it zipped, knowing that you would be able to make a lot more money in the short term by aiding the cover-up?
Or would you try to persuade your Buy-and-Hold friends to correct the error so that they could feel good about themselves again and so that we could bring the economic crisis to an end and bring on the greatest period of economic growth in U.S. history?
You know what I feel bound in conscience to do.
I would be grateful if you would ponder the question a bit and tell us what you sincerely believe you would do if you were placed in the circumstances in which I find myself.
Rob
Anonymous says
Say that you were me. Say that you loved the core Buy-and-Hold concept (focusing on the long term and rooting your strategies in the peer-reviewed research) but that you became convinced that your Buy-and-Hold friends had made a terrible mistake
I think my friends who don’t eat enough vegetables and exercise less than 60 minutes per day are making a mistake. Of course I don’t know for sure – the future’s a terribly uncertain place. So I may mention it to them respectfully at times, but never in a manic or boorish or repetitive way. That’s how I keep my friends my friends. Meanwhile, I remain gainfully employed and provide for my future and my family.
Rob says
It’s not only you Goons who populate our boards and blogs, Anonymous.
I care about you Goons and never in a million years would I want to do anything that you perceive as “manic” or “boorish” or “repetitive.” But there are lots of people at all our boards who find nothing whatsoever manic or boorish or repetitive in hearing what the last 34 years of peer-reviewed research tells us about how stock investing works. So they get to hear it whether you Goons like the idea or not. The way it is.
You are right that the future is a terribly uncertain place. Understanding that reality about the future doesn’t make the idea of spending it in prison come to possess any more appeal to me. If anything, it pushes things in the other direction. It is partly because I accept that the future is a terribly uncertain place that I am careful not to cross The Felony Line in our discussions. Perceptions of how serious a crime it is to cover up the errors in the Old School retirement studies might change in time. I want to be sure not to break any laws during times when financial fraud is rationalized by many so that I am not held to account for the felony when the sands shift.
I hope that makes good sense to you, my long-time Buy-and-Hold friend.
I naturally wish you the best of luck with all your future endeavors regardless of what investing strategies you elect to pursue.
Rob
Anonymous says
So they get to hear it whether you Goons like the idea or not.
No, we simply ban you. Whether you like the idea or not 😉 .
Rob says
In the short-term, that is what has happened, Anonymous.
But the laws of the United States reflect the values of a nation of people.
It is those laws that will prevail in the long run.
Or so Rob Bennett believes, you know?
Perhaps I am wrong. It’s been known to happen.
We’re all going to get to see it play out in front of us over the course of the next few years in any event.
Is that not so? Can we agree on that much?
Since I am incapable of posting dishonestly re the numbers that my friends use to plan their retirements, I have never had any choice but to wait and see how it plays out.
No, I do NOT like the manner in which it has played out for 13 years now. Not one tiny little bit.
There’s nothing that I can do about it. So I accept it. And hope that it plays out differently following the next crash.
We’ll see, you know? I have my beliefs and you have your beliefs. And we will see together how things go.
My best wishes to you.
Rob
Anonymous says
Another article on the rich Janitor:
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/02/15/how-did-a-janitor-amass-8-million-the-same-way-you.aspx
Note the following comments on reasons for his success:
He was a buy-to-hold investor. Read kept stock certificates in a safety deposit box, which means he most likely didn’t trade very often. These days it’s most common to let your brokerage hold your stocks in “street name,” keeping you on record as the owner, but not bothering to send out certificates. That makes selling shares very easy, as you don’t have to find certificates and mail them in. But it also makes it very easy to buy and sell frequently, which has been shown to lower returns.
Yes, we have yet another example of a successful buy and hold investor. Do we have any similar cases that we can so of successful VII investors?????
Rob says
We have the entire historical record, Anonymous.
You know as well as I do that what they are talking about in that article when they say he didn’t buy and sell often is that he did not engage in short-term timing. And you of course know that I am every bit as opposed to short-term timing as you are. So there is zero dispute re the point made in the article.
The Janitor did the right thing re short-term timing. He learned what the right thing is by listening to the Buy-and-Holders. The Buy-and-Holders made a huge contribution by showing with peer-reviewed research that short-term timing never works. We all should be grateful to them for advancing our understanding of how stock investing works. You and millions of others have said this hundreds of times and I have said this hundreds of times. So I think it would be fair to say that this one is pretty much set in stone. The Buy-and-Holders are heroes.
The question at the root of the 13-year Campaign of Terror against our board and blog communities is a very different one. It is whether there can ever be another advance in our understanding of stock investing that goes BEYOND what the Buy-and-Holders taught us because any additional advances will make the Buy-and-Holders feel bad that they didn’t provide that advance back at the time when they put forward the first-draft version of their strategy. I say that we need to permit further advances.
Why?
One big reason is that the laws of the United States require it. Those who engage in the tactics that we have seen from the sorts of individuals who have put up posts in “defense” of Mel Limdauer and John Greaney and Jack Bogle have committed numerous felonies as part of their effort to block the millions of middle-class investors who want to know about the additional advances from learning about them.
I don’t like the idea of seeing my Buy-and-Hold friends being sent off to prison cells. So that first one is a big one for me. I OPPOSE the death threats and the demands for unjustified board bannings and the tens of thousands of acts of defamation and the threats to get academic researchers fired from their jobs. In the strongest possible terms. I want to help my Buy-and-Hold friends AND the millions of middle-class investors whose lives are in the process of being destroyed. So I urge everyone in this field to work up the courage to STAND UP to those who have posted in “defense” of Mel Linduaer and and John Greaney and Jack Bogle. Helping the millions of middle-class investors and my Buy-and-Hold friends is a big deal to me. So I find this first argument for opposing all this garbage pretty darn compelling.
But by no means do I ever pretend that I believe that it is the only reason for permitting honest posting at every board and blog on the internet. There are so many reasons for permitting it that I am not sure that I could take the time to list them all or to count them up after I was done listing them.
A very big second reason is that the survival of our economic system depends on it. I am sure that this janitor fellow has either children or nephews and nieces or people he just flat-out likes or whatever that he wants to see be able to take advantage of the wealth that has been generated by our economic system for a long time now. That cannot happen unless we find a way to get accurate and honest information on how to invest in stocks out to millions of people. The $8 million accumulated by this janitor counts for $8 million in Monopoly money unless a number of us pull together to open the entire internet to honest posting re safe withdrawal rates and scores of other critically important investment-related topics.
The Great Depression was brought on when the promotion of Buy-and-Hold “strategies” pulled the P/E10 level up to 33. This time the promotion of those “strategies” pulled it up to 44. So we are looking ahead to a Second Great Depression twice as deep as the first one and twice as long as the first one. At a time when we for the first time in history have 34 years of peer-reviwed research showing us what truly works!
Not this boy.
You are going to have to find someone else for this adventure, Anonymous.
It’s not my particular cup of tea.
I find little appeal in the idea of going to prison.
And I find little appeal in the idea of seeing my country fall into the Second Great Depression at the very time when the 34 years of peer-reviewed research needed for us all finally to come to a sound understanding of how stock investing works became available to us.
I am not your guy.
No can do.
I can’t go for that.
I naturally wish you the best of luck in all your future life endeavors regardless of what investing strategies you elect to follow.
Rob
Anonymous says
So we don’t have any specific VII investors that we can actually point to by name.
Rob says
I mean no personal offense, Anonymous. But this particular question is a stupid one. I have said that I have never met a dumb Buy-and-Holder and I stand by that. But even generally smart people ask stupid questions from time to time. This is a case where that happened.
Did we have anyone take the polio vaccine before the polio vaccine was made available?
Did we have anyone buy Beatles records before the Beatles were signed to a record contract?
Did that janitor fellow accumulate $8 million before he went to his first janitor job and saved the money he needed to buy his first share of stock?
We have had thousands of community members express a desire to participate in honest discussions of Valuation-Informed Indexing. That translates into millions in the general population. There obviously is no shortage of interest in learning about the first true research-based investing strategy.
You Goons have participated in the biggest act of financial fraud in U.S. history in an effort to block those millions of people learn what they need and want to know. You will be going to prison following the next crash.
The announcement of your prison sentence will go viral and word about what the last 34 years of peer-reviewed research says will spread far and wide. Once everyone has learned about what works, we will all work together as a nation to bury the smelly Buy-and-Hold garbage 30 feet in the ground, where it can do no further harm to humans and other living things.
I hope that helps a bit.
My best and warmest wishes to you and yours.
Rob
laugh says
We do have some evidence.
A janitor buy and holder is a multi-millionaire. Rob, who has a law degree and at one time had a self reported income far in excess of a janitor, is not. Unless his inheritance was large but it is hard to give VII credit for that one, especially as his father was a buy and holder?
Rob says
We do have some evidence.
A janitor buy and holder is a multi-millionaire. Rob, who has a law degree and at one time had a self reported income far in excess of a janitor, is not. Unless his inheritance was large but it is hard to give VII credit for that one, especially as his father was a buy and holder?
The statements you advance here are true, Laugh. The janitor really was a Buy-and-Holder and really is a millionaire. I for a time earned an income far in excess of that earned by the janitor. I received an inheritance far in excess of anything that I thought possible given where my parents started in life. My father was a Buy-and-Holder through and through.
The other side of the story is that there is 34 years of peer-reviewed research showing that the worst mistake that a stock investor can make is to fail to exercise price discipline (that is, to practice long-term timing) when buying stocks.
Given that all the research is on one side and no research whatsoever is on the other side, my assessment of the points you raise is that they are all rooted in emotion. You fell for a Get Rich Quick scheme and it hurts. If I were advocating Buy-and-Hold, it wouldn’t bother you one tiny little bit that I received a large inheritance. What burns you is that you committed felonies to keep millions of people from hearing what I have to say and the inheritance means that you are not going to get away with it and will be going to prison in future days. Not my problem, you know?
My father and the janitor believed in Buy-and-Hold for a very good reason. Buy-and-Hold was a huge advance over what was available before it came along. Both my father and the janitor benefitted from the advances that the Buy-and-Hold Pioneers brought to all of us. But neither my father nor the janitor would have offered the tiniest bit of support for your use of death threats and demands for unjustified board bannings and tens of thousands of acts of defamation and threats to get academic researchers fired from their jobs. They would have been appalled that there were Internet Goons who would engage in such tactics and they would have been appalled that there were well-respected Buy-and-Hold Pioneers like John Bogle who would fail to take action to rein in such Goons when they became aware of their presence at boards that purport to permit honest posting.
I have praised the Buy-and-Holders profusely for their genuine accomplishments going back to the morning of May 13, 2002. So I have nothing to worry about when Buy-and-Holders are appointed to your jury. Those people wouldn’t like hearing that I was unfair to Buy-and-Holders. But of course I never was. So I am in a good spot.
As Buy-and-Holders, they will HATE it that you dragged the names of all the Buy-and-Holders through the mud by engaging in your insanely abusive intimidation tactics. They will be looking to make Buy-and-Hold look good again and opening the entire internet up to honest posting will do the job. Buy-and-Hold actually WORKS when we permit honest posting and thereby get the errors that crept into the draft version corrected. Valuation-Informed Indexing is Buy-and-Hold corrected for the errors discovered 34 years ago. Valuation-Informed Indexing is what Buy-and-Hold was always intended to be. Valuation-Informed Indexing is Buy-and-Hold 2.0, the New Buy-and-Hold. Valuation-Informed Indexing is Jack Bogle’s dream come true. The New Buy-and-Hold is the future of investing analysis and the discredited form of Buy-and-Hold is its past.
I could be wrong.
I am one of the flawed humans. I’ve made mistakes before and, if it were happening again, I would probably be the last to know.
But what I say above is what I believe to be true.
So there is zero chance that I am going to join you in your massive act of financial fraud and risk going to prison myself. Find someone else, you know?
If you had the opportunity to go back to the morning of May 13, 2002, and play it in a way that would not land you in prison following the next price crash, I am 100 percent certain that that’s what you would do. Neither of us has a time machine. So that option is not open to you. The options open to you at this stage of the proceedings are for you to come clean today and go to prison for a shorter time-period or to hold off until after the next crash and go to prison for a longer time-period.
Your call, you know?
I ain’t going to prison in any circumstance.
So I win.
You can say different. You can bring down the entire U.S. economy with your intimidation tactics if I cannot find 10 people with the courage to stand up to you Goons and to the Wall Street Con Men that you serve. I don’t like that reality one little bit. But it is the reality that we have seen apply for 13 years now and so I accept it.
But I ain’t committing any felonies. I ain’t going to prison. I AM doing all I can do while staying on the right side of The Felony Line to help get your prison sentence reduced a bit REGARDLESS of when you elect to come clean. And I believe that people like the janitor and my father will be working with me after your prison sentences is announced to get us all back on the right track. The world will not come to an end following the next price crash. We will need to rebuild our broken economy from the damage done to it during the Buy-and-Hold years. The announcement of your prison sentence will go viral and we will all pull together to get the job done. My good friend Jack Bogle will be one of the ones helping out. Which will leave you Goons walking down the Main Street of NoWheresVille. Not good.
That’s my sincere take re where things are headed, Laugh. But we are just going to have to wait and see how things play out to find out for sure. I don’t have a time machine that can take us forward in time anymore than I have one that can take us backward in time.
I naturally wish you all the best things that this life has to offer a person regardless of what investing strategies you elect to follow.
Rob