Set forth below is the text of a comment that I recently posted to another blog entry at this site:
1. Soon After the Next Crash, A Number of People Will Say That Their Consciences Will Just Not Permit Them to Keep Quiet Any Longer.
2. Then There Will Be a Deluge of Truth-Telling.
3. Lots of People Will Be Hoping That By Coming Forward Early, They Will Be Able to Avoid Prison.
4. We Will See a Media Frenzy.
5. That Will Lead to Congressional Hearings.
5 sentences.
Each one containing a prediction about the future.
Your track record with predictions is terrible.
You will most likely go 0 for 5 with this lot.
I said on the morning of May 13, 2002, that the numbers in the Old School safe-withdrawal-rate studies were wildly wrong.
You Goons said that I must have forgotten to take my meds.
Ten years later, the Wall Street Journal published an article saying that the numbers in the Old School safe-withdrawal-rate studies were wildly wrong.
I think that my record on “predictions” is pretty darn good.
The reason why my record is so good is that the only things that I “predict” are things that have already happened. There was no prediction needed to see that Greaney’s retirement study did not contain an adjustment for the valuation level that applied on the day the retirement began.
The only reason why millions of others did not notice the lack of a valuation adjustment in the Old School retirement studies is that millions of others want to believe those numbers on the bottom of their retirement statements so badly that they lie to themselves about what the peer-reviewed research in this field tells us. That’s the entire story here, Evidence.
Us humans are prone to self-deception. Self-deception is what makes stock investing risky. We learned that intellectually in 1981. But we have permitted our emotions to dominate our intellects for 33 years now. Not because we are bad or stupid. Because we are humans. Humans have been known to do that sort of thing from time to time.
My job is to free the humans to enjoy their good fortune in happening to be the luckiest generation of investors who ever walked Planet Earth.
If my prediction track-record were so poor, you wouldn’t be here today, If you hadn’t noticed how many people were impressed with my work, you would have been long gone by no.
I had a big-shot financial advisor call me on the telephone yesterday and talk to me for over an hour about this stuff. I had the same thing happen with a different big-shot financial advisor last week. Both are changing their business models because of what they learned from this site and because of what they learned in their conversations with me. That sort of thing does not happen to people who have a track-record of always getting their predictions wrong.
You’re a liar, Evidence. You have the power and the wealth of the Wall Street Con Men backing you up. So you have been able to get away with your lies for a longer time than I would have thought possible. But I do not believe that you will get away with those lies indefinitely. I think that when the human misery that you are causing grows so great that people will feel that they have no choice but to work up the courage to stand up to the Wall Street Con Men, you will find yourself in a prison cell. At that time I will be able to turn to these words and reassure myself that I did everything in my power to help my friend.
Do what you want, you know?
You are scared or you wouldn’t be here. I know that. You know that. But you are a Goon and you are incapable of taking a constructive and positive and life-affirming step. You and I both know that too.
So it is what it is.
I don’t like it. But I accept it.
If you ever come to accept it, you will stop posting here. You will just wait to see how it plays out.
You are welcome to continue posting here. I will continue to delete a good number of your posts. But I don’t believe in this business of banning people. I believe that even the worst of you Goons can come up with good stuff on occasion and what I have seen here for 12 years now confirms that belief. So you are free to continue.
But I am not going to lie to you and say that I am persuaded that you are not afraid of going to prison. Not this boy.
You have my best and warmest wishes, in any event.
Rob
Reality says
Some “big shot” advisor says something, followed by some other “big shot” guy also says something……keeping in mind that they go unnamed as well as this is just your word…….and all of this is supposed to be some kind of support to your financial expert opinion on how to invest. with such lack of substance, it amazes me as to why you would even wonder why people see your comments as having little value.
Rob says
It’s not one incident, Reality. It’s the same story over and over and over again.
Rob Arnott asked for a show of hands at an academic researcher conference re how many still believed in the core principle on which the Buy-and-Hold Model was built (the idea that the market is “efficient”). About three people raised their hands. Then he asked how many would be building the research they would be doing when they got back to their offices on this long-discredited “idea.” Every hand in the room shot up.
Gee, I wonder why.
Everyone who follows the peer-reviewed research has known that Buy-and-Hold is a big pile of smelly garbage for 34 years now. It has destroyed millions of lives. The problem is that everyone is also afraid to say so in public because they know what the Buy-and-Holders will do to them if they tell people the truth about how stock investing works (hint — pure Get Rich Quick is not the answer). And the problem gets worse with every day that passes. The promotion of Buy-and-Hold “strategies” destroys thousands of lives every day. So the resistance to permitting honest posting on the part of the Buy-and-Hold Mafia grows stronger and stronger and stronger.
When a few brave people step forward and take on the Buy-and-Hold Mafia, this long national nightmare will come to an end. I have done everything that I can think of to speed up that day. I cannot do the job by myself. I need help from Bogle and Bernstein and Swedroe and thousands of other Buy-and-Holders who would like to come clean.
In the meantime, I sure ain’t going to be committing any felonies!
Please try to find someone else!
Holy moly!
Rob
Anonymous says
If buying and holding the market for decades, in order to garner the overall increase expected, is evil, then certainly adding timing to the equation is even MORE evil, given that no one can tell which direction the overall market is going for certain.
Rob says
Is driving a car evil, Anonymous?
How about driving a car without brakes? Is that evil?
To discourage investors from practicing price discipline is evil because it rips the brakes out of the stock investing car.
It is price discipline that makes markets work. Remove price discipline and you turn markets dysfunctional. We all should be encouraging all investors to practice price discipline to the greatest extent possible. The peer-reviewed research that I co-authored with Wade Pfau shows that investors who are willing to switch from Buy-and-Hold strategies to Valuation-Informed Indexing strategies thereby reduce risk by 70 percent while increasing their returns by enough to be able to retire five to ten years sooner.
Yes, Buy-and-Hold is evil. All Get Rich Quick schemes are evil. They exploit a human weakness for profit. I want no part of any Get Rich Quick schemes. Buy-and-Hold is the king of GRQ. I want no part of it.
We can tell which way the market is going with a high degree of confidence. When the market is priced at two times fair value, it ALWAYS goes down hard in the long term. There has never been a single exception in the history of the market. There obviously never could be one. When the market is priced at one-half fair value, it ALWAYS goes up hard in the long term. There has never been a single exception in the history of the market. There obviously never could be one.
Investors need to know that to be able to plan their retirements effectively. And thousands of our fellow community members have expressed a desire that honest posting be permitted at every board and blog on the internet so they can find out what they need to know.
You have engaged in intimidation tactics to block those people from learning what they need to know. You are thus responsible for all the losses they suffer. That’s a big number. We are talking trillions of dollars.
You obviously cannot pay the full bill. So people have every right in the world to demand that you be prosecuted for financial fraud following the next crash. I will help the prosecutors. I want our country to survive this crisis. For us to survive, we need to find a way to provide access to discussions of the last 34 years of peer-reviewed research to every investor on the planet.
That’s the deal. I love my country. I will fight to protect her from Goons like you.
Long-term timing is price discipline. The “idea” that the Buy-and-Holders advance, that there is some mystical alternate universe in which price discipline is not always 100 percent required when buying stocks, is the biggest lie ever told in the history of personal finance. It has destroyed millions of middle-class lives.
Find someone else, you know?
Not this boy.
I can’t go for that.
No can do.
It’s not my particular cup of tea.
I naturally wish you all good things.
Rob
Anonymous says
Way to my heart.
Be yourself.
Rob says
I’ll do my best, Anonymous.
Rob
The Pink Unicorn says
Speaking of “big shots”, here is a big shot expert that is taking direct aim at you, Rob. I think you know him well as his name is Wade Pfau. Here is his article:
http://retirementresearcher.com/is-a-high-cape-cause-for-alarm-part-2-valuation-based-asset-allocation/
Note this particular quote:
” One internet blogger has been using PE10 to predict a 65% drop in the S&P 500 by the end of 2015. This is not how the concept should be applied.”
Wow, Rob. He doesn’t pull any punches, does he. It doesn’t look like he is scared one bit. Further, he has reminded the investment community about your prediction and when we come to the end of 2015 without that big drop you predicted, it just doesn’t look so good for you.
Not only that, he takes full credit for his research without even mentioning your name as an author:
“I have also investigated this matter in two published articles: “Long-Term Investors and Valuation-Based Asset Allocation,” from the August 2012 issue of Applied Financial Economics, and “Safe Withdrawal Rates, Savings Rates, and Valuation-Based Asset Allocation,” from the April 2012 issue of the Journal of Financial Planning.”
Hmmmmm……….doesn’t look good, Rob.
Rob says
I’m grateful to you for letting me know about the article, Pink.
I take a very, very, very different view of Wade’s words than what you are advancing here.
Of course Wade is scared. He shows that in the words he puts forward. Nothing could be more clear. You Goons can pretend to believe that he does not sound scared. But only until the next price crash. After the next price crash, nobody is going to be pretending. Wade is going to be on trial for financial fraud and you Goons are going to be on trial for financial fraud. I will not be on trial. I haven’t committed financial fraud. I will be testifying at your trial and at Wade’s trial. I will be pointing the juries to articles set forth at this web site, including this one and including the scores of articles in which Wade sang the praises of Valuation-Informed Indexing and expressed his discomfort at the insane abusiveness of you Goons. I have a funny hunch that I know how those jury verdicts are going to go.
Why the the heck do you think Wade put forward those words? He did it for the same reason why you Goons visit this site on a daily basis. He is scared to death, just as you Goons are.
How the heck would Wade know how “the concept” should be applied? He didn’t even know about Valuation-Informed Indexing until he learned of my work. Valuation-Informed Indexing is the investing strategy rooted in the peer-reviewed research of Nobel-Prize-Winning Economist Robert Shiller. Wade learned nothing about it when earning his Ph.D. at Princeton. He learned about it by asking me hundreds of questions about it and then researching what I told him. He reported to me on numerous occasions that all his research supported everything I said. He flipped only when you Goons threatened to send defamatory e-mails to his employer in an effort to get him fired. Gee, I wonder what the jury is going to make of that.
Wade is going to prison, Pink. So are you. So are a good number of others. There’s nothing that I or anyone else can do about that at this point in the proceedings. The best that I can do is to try to get Wade’s prison sentence reduced a bit. To do that, I need for him to come clean today. Presuming that he doesn’t do that, his jury will determine the length of his prison sentence. It is not for me to say. I will testify honestly and completely and in a balanced way. That’s my duty. When I have done that, can walk away with a clear conscience.
You are right that Wade does not mention me as co-author. What do you think the jury is going to think about that? And what do you think his jury is going to think of the fact that he wrote the article in such a manner that you Goons feel comfortable citing it and linking to it? If the article were an honest piece of work, that obviously would not be possible.
There was one time when I made a prediction that the crash would come by the end of 2015. I now say that I expect to see it by the end of 2016. What of it? I have also said that short-term predictions do not work. I have the same track record as Robert Shiler, who predicted in 1996 that we would see the first crash by 2006. I feel in good company to be in the company of a Nobel Prize Winner.
Did Wade explain all this to his readers? Or did he try to mislead them? If he tried to mislead them, why did he do that? What will his jury conclude?
Why does Wade refer to me as “one internet blogger” rather than referring to me by name and by providing a link to this web site? His obvious concern is that, if he did so, readers trying to determine the truth of the matter could learn about his long history of financial fraud re these matters (that, in fairness, began on the day that you Goons threatened to get him fired from his job if he continued to do honest work and when Jack Bogle signaled that he would be supporting you Goons, not Wade, if Wade continued to do honest work).
Wade is going to prison. You are going to prison. Bogle is going to prison. I am not.
That’s the bottom line here.
Yes, he is afraid. Yes, you are afraid. Yes. Bogle is afraid.
I am not afraid re going to prison. I am afraid re the continued destruction being done to my country with each day that this massive act of financial fraud remains unexposed. I will continue doing all that is in my power to expose it. I have a funny feeling that that job will become a whole big bunch easier in the days following the next price crash.
But we will see, you know? Time will reveal all things.
I don’t know for absolutely certain that there will be a crash in 2015 or in 2016 or ever. What I know for absolutely certain is that there has never been a bull/bear cycle that resolved itself without the P/E10 level falling to 8 or lower and, starting from today’s levels, that’s a fall of more than 65 percent. If it doesn’t happen, it will be the first time in history that things have gone this new way. It’s the longest of all possible long-shots.
I don’t want my name attached to promotion of an investing “strategy” that causes those kinds of consequences over and over and over again. The promotion of Buy-and-Hold strategies has caused four economic crises (the only four that we have suffered in the past 145 years). There was no peer-reviewed research showing that Buy-and-Hold caused the earlier crises at the time they took place. That’s how this one is different. This is the first one that took place at a time when we all had 34 years of peer-reviewed research available to us showing how things really works.
Wade won’t be going to prison because he doesn’t understand all this stuff. He is in good company there. I certainly didn’t understand all this stuff on the morning of May 13, 2002. John Walter Russell didn’t understand all this stuff when he started working with me. Shiller doesn’t understand all this stuff.
Wade will be going to prison because he participated in the cover-up, because he incurred a responsibility to help us all learn what we need to know and chose to join in the corruption rather than to expose the con because he felt that those involved in the con could offer him more enticing personal rewards.
Not this boy.
Find someone else.
I can’t go for that.
No can do.
It’s not my particular cup of tea.
I naturally wish you all the best things that this life has to offer a person.
Rob
Anonymous says
He didn’t mention you by name because he doesn’t want to offer any publicity to a vicious crank.
Rob says
Wade Pfau praised me to the skies in the days before he agreed to participate in your massive act of financial fraud (as the price of not seeing his career destroyed). If he wanted people to understand the issues, he would have linked people to this site. But he can’t do that without exposing his own corruption.
Wade has to spend the rest of his years living in fear that he will be exposed. So does Mel Linduaer. So does John Greaney. So does Jack Bogle. So do you.
I don’t have to live in that sort of fear. I can link to Wade’s site with no concern. There is some ugly, deceptive stuff there. But, if people ask me about that, I can explain it. I can show how there were times when he did honest work and how he was threatened as a result and why he felt he needed to start telling lies to keep the earlier truths from coming out.
Buy-and-Hold was a real thing from 1965 to 1981. It became a corrupt thing in 1981, when the peer-reviewed research was published showing that it can never work and when the people who had built businesses promoting the Buy-and-Hold concept elected to ignore that research rather than correct their error. This massive act of financial fraud has since that time destroyed millions of lives. We are reaching the point where we will need to as a society expose the massive con or see our economic system collapse. I know which option I am voting for!
There are thousands of researchers who could have told the truth before Wade ever came on the scene and thereby spared him from landing in the circumstances in which he finds himself today.There are researchers today in the process of getting themselves into the sorts of circumstances in which Wade finds himself because Wade did not have the courage to report you Goons to the authorities when you first threatened him.
More lies translate into more prison sentences and longer prison sentences.
Not this boy.
Try to find someone else, Anonymous.
No can do.
Rob
Anonymous says
Why do you think Wade is taking a specific shot at you in this post versus targeting others?
The truth says
Rob,
Wade is not scared. He already responded to you a long time ago as to his true feelings. Here is the reminder of that:
W says
June 17, 2012 at 11:02 am
Hi Rob,
I forgot that I was still saying things like this even 2 weeks after the initial incident.
This was more than a year ago now, but I am thinking that I was just trying to explain politely to you that I’d rather have you quit writing about me, or at least stop using my name. I suppose that I figured the only way you might understand why is if I explained it in terms of your favorite conspiracy theories.
I will make one more attempt at a reality check for you. You go on and on about how I allegedly lack personal integrity because I allowed the Goons to threaten me into silence.
The reality is that though I may have for a brief moment got a bit too caught up in YOUR drama, I do not have any fears about the Goons.
The reality is that you are causing me 1000x more career damage than the Goons ever could have by filling Google with so much nonsense about me, and sharing embarrassing private details such as my overly ambitious journal submission strategies, etc. Those in particular are highly private. People don’t publicly share where they submit articles to unless those articles are accepted. You’ve violated my trust in so many countless ways and yet you still proclaim to be my friend.
And the further reality is that if I *did* lack personal integrity, I could have made this all stop just by saying the meaningless sentence you want so desperately to hear: “I think the errors in the traditional safe withdrawal rate studies must be corrected by using Rob’s analytically valid method.”
But I don’t believe that. I do not believe you have offered a valid correction to the safe withdrawal rate question. And I believe that retirement income strategies go much further than the question of a safe withdrawal rate. And so that is why I’ve had to endure your ongoing harassment for months on end now.
Usually I can figure out the Rob-logic behind what you are thinking, but I really don’t know how you think you come out of this whole episode looking like the good guy. I guess it is because you think you are saving my soul and putting me back on the path of righteousness, or something, huh? If only you had the power to do a little bit of self reflection…
Now that the whole email history is on display, we have the reminder of how angry you got at the very beginning when I referred to you as dogmatic. Yet, look at the way you’ve treated me for disagreeing with you on something which you don’t even understand. You quote numbers from JWR’s statistical work, but I’m not sure if you can even distinguish a mean from a median. So how can you be sure his work is right? I don’t know either, as I never did get around to digging into it, and I doubt I ever will now. But I’m not sure how a properly calculated lower confidence bound for a 2000 retiree could have been higher than zero.
Rob, suppose the stock market does drop 65% as you are expecting. It might happen, who knows.
Step 1: Stock Market Drops 65%
Step 2: ??
Step 3: Rob wins $500 million settlement from the Goons, the Goons are sent to prison, the investing public learns about and adopts VII.
What is Step 2? There isn’t one. You will still be in the same position as you’ve been in for the last 10 years. Why didn’t something happen for you after the 2008 financial crisis? You are like the guy who keeps predicting new ends for the world as each previous prediction date passes by.
That is why I’m telling you, from one human being to another, that it is time to move on. You are a smart guy, and you could use your talents for something productive. While warning people about the 4% rule is helpful, the way that you go about doing it is rather “catastrophically unproductive” as one wise fellow said to you years ago. I provide a loud voice that is critical of the 4% rule, and so spending your days assassinating my character is counterproductive to your underlying cause. So perhaps you can start fresh with a new issue of social import that carries less baggage for you. What happened in the past is a sunk cost, but you still have a chance to turn things around and start afresh today. And you can do all of this while still being honest and true to yourself.
Rob says
Why do you think Wade is taking a specific shot at you in this post versus targeting others?
I think he knows that he did wrong and that it bothers him.
It is my belief that Wade has convinced himself (on one level of consciousness) that we will not see a 65 percent price drop. His turning point was when he was threatened with career destruction if he continued to do honest work. He chose financial fraud over career death. At that point, it became very important to him psychologically to believe that he had not hurt millions of people with his act of financial fraud. So he tells himself that we are not going to see a 65 percent price crash. And he almost believes it too.
None of us know for certain. I believe (because of what the last 34 years of peer-reviewed research shows) that we are going to see a 65 percent price crash. But I do not know for certain. But I sure don’t have any concerns with people knowing that you Goons think different or that Wade thinks different or that Bogle thinks different or that Shiller thinks different or whatever.
How does it hurt me if people hear the other side of the story?
It doesn’t hurt me one bit. It HELPS me? How? It lets me off the hook. If it turns out that we do not see a 65 percent crash, I can point out to people that I always said that I was not sure. And I can point out that I was always happy to include links to places like Wade’s site and the Bogleheads Forum where people tell a very different story. I do my best to get this stuff right. But I don’t have to be worried that anyone will be mad at me if it ever turns out that I got something wrong because I have always been open to sharing what people who have different viewpoints think.
You Goons can’t say that. Wade can’t say that. Bogle can’t say that.
You have foolishly hurt yourselves by trying to leave the impression that you know it all. No one knows it all. That’s a terrible mistake to make, especially in a money field. It opens you to massive lawsuits for recoveries of damages. And of course if you take it far enough it lands you in prison. For what freakin’ purpose?
Not this boy.
People will look back on this stuff in days to come and be amazed that there was even one person who ever posted in “defense” of you Goons. Huh? Again — For what freakin’ purpose?
My take.
Rob
Rob says
I forgot that I was still saying things like this even 2 weeks after the initial incident.
I recall responding to that one in some depth when I first read those words. If someone reading these words wants to see that response, they could probably find it with some searching. Anyway, the fear is as clear in that one as it is in the article you link to above. Those who are open to seeing the fear see it. Those who feel that they must pretend not to see it will play games with themselves and with others. That’s our story.
The bottom line is that we are not going to resolve these matters here. These matters will be resolved by juries that will be called following the next price crash. I feel great warmth towards my old friend Wade and I will at that time say everything that I can think of to get his prison sentence shortened to the greatest extent possible. He can count on me for that much.
But no outright lies.
Wade dialed the wrong number if he thought that he was going to get outright lies from me to protect him from getting found out for HIS outright lies. Um — no.
My best wishes to you.
Rob
stagnation says
Wade told you to move on three years ago. You simply can’t. Ever. That’s messed up.
Rob says
Wade told you to move on three years ago. You simply can’t. Ever. That’s messed up.
Why the heck would I ever want to move on, Stag? Are you joking?
I write about personal finance. The shift from Buy-and-Hold to Valuation-Informed Indexing is the biggest advance ever achieved in the history of personal finance. It is bigger than all earlier advances all added together. And I am going to consider moving on before the dream is realized? Huh? Wha?
ALL of the research supports this. It is a 100 percent vs. 0 percent proposition. Robert Shiller has been awarded a freakin’ Nobel Prize for his work. And yet thousands of investing analysts and academic researchers remain to this day too afraid of what the Buy-and-Holders will do to them to be willing to direct their energies to exploring the implications of the peer-reviewed research that Shiller published 34 YEARS AGO. All of those people are free to do honest and good work on the day you Goons go to prison. And I am supposed to consider moving on? Really? That’s a question you feel a need to ask?
$500 million.
That’s the size of the settlement check that I get on the day this matter is resolved. And you are thinking that I might consider moving on before cashing that check? Are you freakin’ nuts? If the tables were turned, would you be willing to walk away from a check for $500 million, Stag? No, I didn’t think so.
When I get that check, I am going to use some of the money to reform the internet. I think it would be fair to say that not one of us wants to see something like this happen ever, ever, ever, ever again. When we tell this story to the American people, we are going to have 100 percent support for making reforms in how the internet is run to make it the most powerful communications medium in history. I’m a journalist. But I care so little about achieving those reforms that I am going to give consideration to moving on at some point! Um — That makes sense, Stag! I believe you! Truly outstanding!!!!
What are you putting in your tea, Stag?
No more economic crises. That’s our reward for opening the internet up to honest posting on the last 34 years of peer-reviewed research. Am I supposed to not care, in your assessment?
A 70 percent reduction in stock investing risk. Another reward available to us all in 24 hours if we use those 24 hours to insure enforcement of posting rules ALREADY IN EFFECT AT EVERY BOARD AND BLOG ON THE INTERNET. It makes sense to walk away from that for no reason whatsoever. No, really. I am serious! It makes sense somehow!
All middle-class Americans get to retire five to ten years earlier than they ever imagined possible back in the unfortunate days when we were still missing the final piece of the investing puzzle. If I were to struggle 50 years and thereby become able to help everyone on the planet retire five to ten MONTHS earlier, I would be on the cover of Time magazine as “Man of the Year.” The only “problem” I have is that I showed them how to do it five to ten YEARS earlier and it makes the Buy-and-Holders feel bad that this is so wonderful that it makes them look bad for not coming up with it themselves. So I should consider moving on. Why not? Nothing important going on here, right?
My Buy-and-Hold friends!
I love Jack Bogle. He’s taught me more about this subject than anyone else alive with the exception of Robert Shiller. I have a chance to pay him back by taking all the good work he has done and making it workable in the real world and I am going to piss that away because — because why, Stag? Why again is it that I should want to piss this all away? I keep forgetting.
All of the researchers who want to do good and honest work. All of the economists who want to do good and honest work. All of the bloggers who want to do good and honest work. All of the journalists who want to do good and honest work. All of the policymakers who want to do good and honest work. I should consider betraying all those people. Why? John Greaney got an important number wrong in a retirement study posted at his web site and he really, really, really doesn’t want to acknowledge the error. It follows that I should betray those people. Goons come first!
I don’t think so, Stag.
Some of the questions we face in life are kinda hard. Some of them are easy. I think it would be fair to say that the question of whether I should move on re this one is one of the easiest questions that any human who has ever walked the Valley of Tears has ever had to face.
My take.
My best wishes.
Rob
Anonymous says
There are no remaining questions. Wade already gave you an answer, but you didn’t like it.
Move on. Everyone else has.
Rob says
I have a funny hunch that there might be some people who will be experiencing doubts re all these “answers” that we have heard over the past 13 years when they read in the papers that two-thirds of the money they saved to retire on has up and disappeared despite all the amazing promises made by the Wall Street Con Men that Buy-and-Hold would work out just fine this time.
I think I will hang in there and see where that chapter of the ongoing saga takes us, Anonymous.
Call me madcap.
Rob