Yesterday’s blog entry reported on an e-mail that I sent to Academic Researcher Wade Pfau on May 1, 2011. In the e-mail, I tried to offer words of comfort to my friend, who was living in fear that the Greaney Goons would follow through on their efforts to get him fired from his job because he had posted honestly on safe withdrawal rates. I knew from our earlier correspondence that Wade is married and has at least one small child (this came up during the time there was a concern over a possible nuclear meltdown in Japan because Wade had particular concerns about what might happen to his wife, who was pregnant at the time). I sent a follow-up e-mail the next day. The text is set forth below.
Wade:
I reread your e-mail this morning and noticed something that might suggest a misperception that needs to be cleared up. You ask that I not delete the thread at the Hocomania site. I have no ability to delete threads there. That site is owned by Greaney. It was set up solely for the purpose of intimidating people like you, people who have expressed some interest in uncovering the realities of what the historical data says.
For example, there was a time when we had many people participating at Bogleheads who thought that valuations should be considered in calculations of the SWR. They would analyze each thread at the Hocomania board and discuss strategies for destroying people who had expressed the view that valuations should be considered. They would talk about defamatory things they could all agree to say over at Bogleheads to get people not to like that poster or things that they could say the poster had said that would help to get the poster banned or organize campaigns to send e-mails to Morningstar to demand a ban. If a reporter wrote an article, they would send e-mails to the reporter’s boss to try to get him or her fired. There was a time when they called a poster’s place of work to try to get that poster fired. Mel Lindauer would then put a link up at Bogleheads so that everyone knew that the person who had said that valuations should be considered was being “punished” and understood what would be in store for them if they elected to “cross” Lindauer or Greaney by posting honestly on investing topics.
This is why I often note that there is a Ban on Honest Posting on SWRs in effect at Bogleheads and many other sites today. This group uses Google searches to find out each day if there is anyone posting honestly about SWRs or other important investment-related topics and then sends their Goon Squads in to deal with the matter. As I said in the earlier e-mail, this has been going on for nine years now. Given the huge legal liabilities they have run up, there is precisely zero chance that they will stop of their own accord, in my assessment.
I have no way of knowing precisely how much of the background of all this you know about. I have been presuming that, since you have seen Drip Guy’s behavior and Lindauer’s behavior, you had the general idea. Your comment about me
deleting a thread led me to believe that you might be thinking that I have some sort of ownership interest in that board. I have opposed the Campaign of Terror against our board communities going back to May 13, 2002. I put a post to Motley Fool demanding Greaney’s removal on November 23, 2002 (this was after he put up a post threatening to kill family members of any community members who posted honestly on the SWR matter). I post at that board only to correct the record to the extent I can and to answer questions that the Goons have (even the Goons would benefit from understanding the realities of stock investing and there have been rare cases where they have asked sincere questions). I have zero authority to delete threads at the Hocomania board.
The Bogleheads board at one time had a reputation for not encouraging lots of abusive posting. When the Goons showed up, a number of long-timers there asked where the Goon posters were coming from. I put up a post describing Greaney’s tactics and Lindauer’s role of linking to Greaney’s board each time a new poster dared to post honestly. I also contacted Morningstar about the matter and offered to send them e-mails each time Lindauer linked to the Greaney board. The Morningstar admins did not respond to the e-mail. Lindauer has said that “higher-ups” at Vanguard follow the board closely and know what goes on at it. The threatening threads were a daily occurrence during the years when I posted there. It was my May 13, 2002, post at Motley Fool that first noted the analytical errors in the Old School studies. So the Goons knew from my first post at Bogleheads that I would be posting honestly and started a smear campaign on the first day.
The Bogleheads board was launched for the purpose of blocking any possibility of honest posting. There had been numerous posters arguing that honest posting should be permitted back when the board was located at Morningstar.com. The smear campaigns caused many good people to leave but some soldiered on. The idea of moving to Bogleheads.org was to no longer have to operate under the Morningstar admins, who had not taken action in response to the smear campaigns but who had also not been wiling to ban those posting honestly, as the Lindauer and Greaney Goons demanded. Today they can of course ban anyone who comes to represent any sort of threat. So you no longer see discussions of whether honest posting on SWRs should be permitted or not.
I hope that background helps you make a little bit better sense of this. If ever there is a time when you have questions about the history, please don’t hesitate to ask. For good or for ill, I’ve had a front-row seat going back to the first day.
Rob
Evidence Based Investing says
I put up a post describing Greaney’s tactics and Lindauer’s role of linking to Greaney’s board each time a new poster dared to post honestly.
I assume you will be following your usual practice of making wild accusations and refusing to back them up with evidence or links to the post in question.
Rob says
Truly outstanding!
Rob
what says
Where is the post?
Rob says
I don’t understand your question, What.
Rob
Rob says
What:
I reread this and I think I now understand what you are asking. I believe that you are seeking the post that I put to the Vanguard Diehards board “describing Greaney’s tactics and Lindauer’s role of linking to Greaney’s board each time a new poster dared to post honestly.”
Here is a link to the thread:
http://socialize.morningstar.com/NewSocialize/forums/p/172739/172739.aspx#172739
There were numerous posts both in this thread and in many others in which I advanced these points in all sorts of ways. But the particular post that I had in mind when I wrote those words to Wade was the one that I put to this thread on April 13, 2006, at 2:16 PM. It is Post #2151639. Here are the words:
Look at 49451 and see someone with 2 morningstar posts that has nothing to add except a wise crack.
For those not playing close enough attention to understand what is going on here, I will provide a brief bit of background.
There is an individual who got an important number wrong in a study that he published on the internet. He has elected not to acknowledge the error. Because he has his own web site, he has a number of supporters who are willing to do just about anything to block any discussion board on the face of the internet from engaging in honest and informed and reasoned discussions of the topic addressed in the study in which he got the number wrong.
I was aware from my own research that this individual got the number wrong. I reported this to a board at which I posted, and that post generated the most exciting discussions that board had ever witnessed. My position was vindicated beyond any reasonable doubt when we discovered what Bill Bernstein says about the subject matter of the study in his book “The Four Pillars of Investing.”
I put up a post entitled “What Bernstein Says” that reported on Bernstein’s position. The response from the individual who got the number wrong was to threaten to send one of his goons to my house with a baseball bat to kill my wife and kids. Motley Fool banned me because their lawyers are concerned that some crazy supporter of this individual may actually take action on this insane threat and that they could be held liable. The site administrator has said that he would love to have me back on the board (Motley Fool co-founder Tom Gardner wrote one of the blurbs that appear on the back cover of my book) if the individual would “permit” it.
This development caused every effective on-topic poster at that board to leave the board within a matter of months. There is no longer any on-topic posting worth taking note of at that board.
Those interested in the subject matter of that board went on to form four other boards at which they hoped to be able to engage in honest and informed and reasoned posting on the subject matter of the board. As each became successful, the individual sent his goons in to destroy every one of them.
Mel has linked to this individual’s web site on several occasions. The individual’s supporters have interpreted this as an endorsement of this individual’s tactics for “dealing with” the statements put forward by Bernstein and a host of others on what the historical data says re how valuations affect long-term stock returns (a topic closely related to the topic addressed in the study in which the individual got the number wrong).
Rob
I had recall of the particular post at the time I wrote Wade because MorningstarCasey (a site administrator) had contacted me about it. MCasey asked me to verify the death threats. I did so. MCasey then said that these matters did not happen at Morningstar and should not be brought up at Moriningstar boards. I said that I agreed and that therefore I would like to see Morningstar take action to see that Mel Lindauer stopped saying positive things about Greaney or linking to the Greaney board and inviting his Goon Squad to come to the Morningstar board to disrupt conversations being held there. A number of the best and most influential posters of course knew about the death threats and were intimidated from posting honestly by seeing an individual (Mel Lindauer) who has an association with John Bogle openly linking to or openly praising the person who made the death threats and inviting members of that individual’s Goon Squad to join the discussions at Morningstar. I offered to send an e-mail to MCasey each time Mel did this so that MCasey could build a strong case against him and have him removed from the community. MCasey did not respond to that e-mail.
Rob
Evidence Based Investing says
In other words you have no proof whatsoever of “Lindauer’s role of linking to Greaney’s board each time a new poster dared to post honestly.”
Rob says
That sounds right, Evidence.
Good point.
Rob
what says
Could you post the evidence you provided MCasey of death threats?
Rob says
I have the e-mails that I exchanged with the Morningstar admins, What. They are too long to post as a comment here.
I’m thinking that I should post the texts of them in separate blog entries. There are no empty slots until July 12. I will make a mental note to run blog entries reporting on the correspondence with the Morningstar admins starting either July 12 or shortly thereafter. I have a few other things that I want to get to and it is possible that the MStar stuff will not show up until a little bit later than that.
Here’s an article that sets forth 101 comments from my fellow community members complaining about the death threats and other smelly abusive garbage:
http://www.passionsaving.com/investing-discussion-boards.html
Rob
what says
Whew, I got tired reading all of that irrelevant crud from 2006. Didn’t see an ounce of anything worth reading.
I am interested in reading the post with death threats in it though. I’ve never quite been able to find that one – care to share a link?
what says
I didn’t see any evidence of death threats here:
http://www.passionsaving.com/investing-discussion-boards.html
Just seems to be the blubbering of a grown man for the most part.
Rob says
Whew, I got tired reading all of that irrelevant crud from 2006. Didn’t see an ounce of anything worth reading.
Please try again, What.
People do not follow Get Rich Quick strategies because of their intellectual appeal. They follow them because of their emotional appeal. It is your emotions telling you there is nothing for you in those words. You need to overcome those self-destructive emotions. The good news is that, once you do that, you are on your way to some wonderful discoveries about how stock investing works in the real world.
I am interested in reading the post with death threats in it though. I’ve never quite been able to find that one – care to share a link?
You have the link. You have made use of it. Now you need to make positive use of it.
I wish you all good things, old friend.
Rob
Rob says
Just seems to be the blubbering of a grown man for the most part.
That post contains the comments of 101 of our fellow community members, What. If cannot be the blubbering of a single old man. If it is blubbering, it would need to be the blubbering of 101 old men.
And that is of course a silly idea.
Please take good care.
Rob
Not Wade Pfau says
How many goons are there? I don’t understand how 102 people can be silenced with death threats and the police do nothing about it.
Isn’t Wade Pfau on another contient? And he was intimidated into submission?
You are a very brave man. Keep up the good fight.
Rob says
How many goons are there?
I was hoping someone would ask this question.
There are 147.
They are big and mean.
They have bad teeth.
They have bushy hair all over their bodies.
They smell funny.
They dress funny.
They sit too close to you on the bus.
They borrow your favorite novels and “forget” to return them.
They never remember Mother’s Day.
They take flowers out of the trash to hand out on Valentine’s Day.
They have big collections of Leo Sayer albums. All the outtakes.
They tailgate.
Rob
Rob says
It felt good to get that off my chest.
Next question?
Rob
Rob says
I don’t understand how 102 people can be silenced with death threats and the police do nothing about it.
I’m with you, Not Wade.
It’s my job to understand this sort of thing and I don’t get it either.
It’s not possible, you know? And yet it is. The words on the computer screen do not lie.
It’s hard to make complete sense of some of this stuff.
They spit on public sidewalks.
Did I mention that?
Rob
Rob says
Isn’t Wade Pfau on another contient? And he was intimidated into submission?
Goons speak many languages, Not Wade. I suppose you could say it is one of their good points.
They leave just a tiny amount of corn flakes in the box.
Rob
Rob says
I’m feeling better.
Rob
Rob says
You are a very brave man. Keep up the good fight.
Well, I don’t have any Leo Sayer albums, I think that much is fair to say.
Rob
Rob says
Maybe one.
But it wasn’t my idea!
Rob
Rob says
There was a girl involved.
I was young.
Rob
what says
“It’s not possible, you know? And yet it is. The words on the computer screen do not lie.”
Yet somehow yours do? Where are the death threats?
Not Wade Pfau says
You don’t get a lot of repeat commenters, do you?
Rob says
You need to take the Goon I.Q. Quz, What:
https://twitter.com/Rob_Bennett_/status/214053836002828289
Rob